Its no secret that Jerry Springer has seen more examples of the decline of civility in society than probably anyone.

So when he blames Donald Trump for the current rise in rudeness, maybe hes onto something?

He thinks so anyway, as he told MSNBC host Stephanie Ruhle during a segment on Friday.

I used to joke and say that my anger at the president is that he took my show and brought it to the White House, Springer said.

He then talked about civility in a manner familiar to anyone who has seen one of his final thoughts that used to end his talk show.

Civility is critical in terms of our norms, and we cant function as a society unless we have norms of how to behave, said Springer, the former mayor of Cincinnati. You cant pass enough laws to take care of every human interaction.

But Springer said for norms to work, top leaders have to take them seriously.

When they misbehave, when they say the norms dont matter, when they say, You can use whatever language you want, anything you can get away with, get away with it. If you dont pay taxes, youre smart. Demeaning other people. When they have this behavior, it tells society that we really dont have any norms anymore, Springer said.

He added: Theres no appropriate way to behave. We cant have that in the leadership of our country.

We can change policies, well survive that [but] once we do away with civility in terms of our institutions, weve lost it.

Ruhle then noted the irony of Springer, a man who got famous for hosting a show where people often expressed disagreement by tossing chairs, decrying increased incivility.

Jerry, are you saying its our leaders that need to set the example? Ruhle asked. Because, again, the success of your show in some part was predicated on Americas love of the battle. When people were chanting Jer-ry! Jer-ry! it wasnt when the people on your stage were hugging it out.

Sadly for daytime-TV buffs, Springer declined to respond by throwing a chair. Instead, he responded more civilly, but with calculation, like hes heard that line of questioning before.

First of all, our show was about dysfunctional behavior, so obviously everyone whos going to appear on the show is acting dysfunctionally, Springer said. That was the point of the show. But no one ever suggested, never did I do a final thought, and say, This is the way you ought to behave.

Springer then pointed out the folly of saying that because theres a crazy television show where youve got people that admittedly are dysfunctional on the air, that therefore, its OK to have an administration thats dysfunctional.

He then pointed out how The Jerry Springer Show was a step above the current administration in terms of class.

When you have the president of the United States using language that even on our crazy show wed bleep out, then societys in trouble.